Schools of Nursing Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: barrysutton on May 28, 2009, 08:53:03 PM

Title: General Nursing Council
Post by: barrysutton on May 28, 2009, 08:53:03 PM
I'm trying to put together a complete set of Enrolled and Registered however I need to know what I require, I already have some they being:- SEAN named, numbered, pin & safety chain, SEAN named, numbered, lapel  & safety chain, GNC (green) for E. & W., blank reverse, pin. SEN named, numbered, pin & safety chain, SEN named, numbered, lapel & safety chain and SEN numbered & pin.
SRN named, numbered, H.M. & pin, SRN named, numbered, H.M. & lapel, SRN named, numbered, chrome & pin, SRN named,numbered, chrome, pin & safety chain.
SRN/RSCN named, numbered, chrome, pin & safety chain, SRN/RSCN numbered, chrome & pin.
RSCN named, numbered, H.M., pin & safety chain, RSCN named, numbered, chrome, pin & safety chain.
RFN named, numbered, H.M.& pin.
RMN named, numbered, chrome, pin & safety chain, RMN named, numbered, chrome, lapel & safety chain.
RNMS named, numbered, chrome & pin, RNMS named, numbered, chrome & lapel.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on May 28, 2009, 11:09:03 PM
A finding topic. Getting together a complete set of GNC badges could be quite complicated, but very worthwhile from a historical point of view. In effect there were only a small number of major 'revisions'  mainly of materials - Silver becoming chromium plated base metal with the onset of WWII as a measure, I believe, to save precious metals. Like the Road Tax it was never changed back - even though silver was later not really restricted or really precious - and in any event the silver badges were not free to recipients...

The face side of the badge remained unchanged (I think) throughout the life of the E&W badges. but  there have were several reverse side differences - and all are collectable.

EG: Because no new badges were issued (in E&W) when a nurse took a second Registration course, the original badge could be returned for the addition of the letters & dates.  It is not unusual to see double qualifications on the reverse of a state badge (both silver & chromium plated versions) SRN/RFN - RMN/SRN - SRN/RMND  etc etc. You have some combinations already. On the vast majority of badges with combined registrations the SRN was present, although not always the first qualification. Some combinations changed because titles changed - eg: RMND became RNMS became RNMH - so the possible multiples are several in number.

Physically the reverses were basically alike - except that some will be found with safety chain loops - not always at the base - whilst the basic face of the badges did not. Sometimes you will notice the Fattorini (maker stamp) at the base but more frequently at the top of the reverse. Just another permutation...

The pin remained much the same throughout. A lapel button hole finding was also available which could be requested before the badge was issued.

The inscription typefaces did change between early and later badges. I do not know whether early badges were stamped - they certainly seem so, and how the later badges were inscribed is a mystery to me. I think machine engraved. You can be sure though that the typefaces used were of a size which left room for additions...

Badges were issued to cover at least three examinations a year. January; June; October. The actual dates inscribed were the actual registration dates, not examination dates - varying ad lib. Duplicates were also issued where an original had been lost and were thus stamped "Duplicate".

At a date I cannot immediately recall - the '70s I think - recipient names were left off and just the Registration number and date applied. This was said to be for security reasons (making impersonating a nurse more difficult) but my own opinion is that it facilitated issue and cost less. Anyone accepting a state badge as evidence of Registration would have to have been a bit lacking (and breaking all rules). Although there were cases...

The GNC EN badges are equally finding - the early ones marked SEAN (State Enrolled Assistant Nurse) later becoming SEN (State Enrolled Nurse) in E&W. Again, the nurses name was originally applied to the reverse side and later just the number.

An interesting point is that whilst the vast majority of EN badges were of bronze or brass - I can't remember off hand - there are chromium plated examples in existence. I don't known the provenance of these or any other details.

The faces of both Registered and EN badges are essentially the same. The main difference being the colour of the central ring containing the 'General Nursing Council for England and Wales' title. Blue for the Registration Badges, pale green for the EN version.

There are a couple of articles which may be of interest already on site here:-

http://www.schoolsofnursing.co.uk/Nursingbadges/collectingnursinghistory1.htm

http://www.schoolsofnursing.co.uk/Nursingbadges/Articles/Badgedesignxx.htm

I am sure that other collectors will be adding more interesting material which I feel sure will be of use to you. Thanks for starting a very interesting topic.

WB.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: nursesue on May 29, 2009, 06:59:19 PM
hi - I believe that Mike ( myk1066) is trying to get a complete set of dated SRN badges, As for me I'm still trying to get a complete set of Scottish state badges!!
I have lost my original SRN badge but if memory serves me correctly it just had my registration number and year qualified on it - don't recall it having my name. This was for security and to stop somebody from impersonating you. My current state badge, that i wear with pride, is for an SRN/RFN.
sue x
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on May 31, 2009, 10:17:38 AM
Hi.

I wonder if we could persuade Myke1066 to add some pearls of wisdom right here on this topic?  he must have some interesting observations to make on GNC badges. I once saw a badge for sale on ebay with a small 'V' shaped notch clipped out of it and couldn't help but wonder why and by whom. Was this the fate of badges which were returned to the GNC when a nurse died? If not just what did happen to those badges?

Did Mrs Bedford-Fenwicks badge - the first - suffer destruction at the hands of the GNC - or does it sit pristinely and proudly in some off-limits official gallery somewhere for it's own safety?

Plus, we could use Barry's topic replies as the basis of a new article here on SoN...

Will.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: Francis Biley on June 02, 2009, 10:35:17 PM
Fascinated detailed stuff...(looking forward to chatting with you soon Wilf)

I have what I think is an additional version of a GNC badge which I think I got off 'nurse-badge' (??) perhaps a decade ago. It is a brass SRN badge, ie like an EN badge but with blue enamel. 'nurse-badge' (sorry I cant remember his name) said he thought they were produced during or just after the war and were made as such because of the shortage of alternative materials. I am almost 100% certain that this is NOT an ordinary SRN badge with the chrome plating rubbed off, which would otherwise seem like an explanation for the badge.

Can anybody else throw any light on this? I'm afraid I can't supply a photo at the moment (nor name or Reg number), all my badges are wrapped up and packed away and I can't bear the idea of going through all the boxes...(not that I've got all that many, just a few 100...).

Regards, Fran
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 03, 2009, 10:22:38 AM
 Hi Fran,
I have seen the type of badge in question and agree that it did seem to be a specific variant of SEAN badge as was a chromed version with green enamel but would love to know just how common these were.I know that Fattorinis ( there were several different companies not always associated) do still maintain pattern books and details of badges they have produced but I'm not sure how accessible these are to researchers?
The other variant which would be very collectable was SRN badge number 500,000 which was awarded in silver,I believe in the 1960s.
You really must try and unpack your badges (and hospital postcards?)and add these to photo pages as we'd all love to see them.

many thanks

Peter
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 03, 2009, 01:40:42 PM
Hi Fran, Peter.

This really is turning into a finding topic. We should be proud of Barry for kicking this particular ball - I know that he had a steep learning curve to climb - but the rewards are certainly worth it.

Some time ago I obtained from Peter a chromium plated version (Green enamel) of the SEN badge - as against the original brass version. A bit like Fran (in the opposite) I wondered if it was a brass version which had been chromed.. I still don't know, but I have not seen another likeness.

And (as usual) attempting a little provocation - I wonder if Mrs Bedford-Fenwick's GNC badge was, being the first, of gold? Or had gold enamel? Answers on a postcard - everyone must be waiting on the answer....

W.
Ps. Yes, speak later Fran, no problem. But like Peter - the badges, the badges...!
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: Francis Biley on June 03, 2009, 07:21:52 PM
:-) perhaps I'll try to look out that badge, I think its packed away with the rest of my GNC badges, I have perhaps 20 or so. Trouble is, my collection is not at all exciting, I love them of course, but there is not much that is out of the ordinary (except perhaps the 2-300 copies I have of the same South Glam badge (anybody want one, or two, or ten?). Oh yes, and then there are the postcards....
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: Francis Biley on June 03, 2009, 08:00:29 PM
OK, I've just placed a couple of photos of my fav badges in the Welsh section, hope you like them.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: barrysutton on June 03, 2009, 11:06:25 PM
Hello Again,
Thank you for all the replies,however needless to say I have a few further observation to make.
Where there ever G.N.C. badges for State Enrolled Mental Nurses.
When where Registered Fever Nurse badges phased out and are there chromed versions of this badge.
 Also as a slight expansion on this topic I currently have , SEAN & SEN shoulder-titles in bronze, a RFN shoulder-title in sterling silver and a SRN shoulder-title in chrome are there any others.
All the best,
ODPBarry
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 04, 2009, 07:03:37 PM
Nice badges Fran,
Found this which may relate to the POW medal,in which case there may be gold and bronze versions as well ?What year is the hallmark?
  See; http://rcnarchive.rcn.org.uk/data/VOLUME067-1921/page356-volume67-03rddecember1921.pdf
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 04, 2009, 09:16:22 PM
Hi.

Back to Barry and the GNC (E&W).

Yes, there were enrolled nurse badges for Mental and Mental handicap (Mental Deficiency/Mental Subnormality) nurses. I don't have any of these so don't want to comment from memory about the inscriptions on the reverse. No doubt one of our members - perhaps Peter, can enlighten us further. I would certainly like to hear a definitive answer to this one.

And likewise - I should know when the last fever nurse was registered with the GNC, but if I do know I can't remember.  Help!

The shoulder titles were I believe a matter for individual hospitals - not the statutory bodies.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 05, 2009, 09:33:11 AM
Some pretty complex details behind this lot which would require me to bury myself in the archives(one day once retirement allows?).In the meantime the finding may be helpful.


 Applications for admission to the Register of Nurses could be accepted only from properly qualified nurses who had completed a three-year training course. There was a large group of second grade or assistant nurses with two years training who were therefore ineligible for registration. In November 1937, an Interdepartmental Committee on Nursing Services, chaired by the Earl of Athlone, recommended that the assistant nurse should be given a recognized status and placed on a roll under the control of the General Nursing Council. This recommendation was eventually embodied in the Nurses Act 1943 by which the General Nursing Council was to regulate the formation, maintenance and publication of the roll and to establish conditions of admission to and removal from the roll.
Unlike the register, the roll included male and female Assistant nurses on one list from the beginning. There was no provision in the 1943 Act for maintenance of the roll in several parts so that there could be no enrolment of assistant nurses working with mental patients. The Nurses Act 1964 gave the council power to make rules for the enrolment of nurses with experience in psychiatric nursing and two rolls were opened for mental nurses and nurses for the mentally subnormal.
In 1961 it was considered that the use of the term 'Assistant Nurse' was hindering recruitment and the Enrolled Nurses Rules Approval Instrument SI 1961/1519 changed the name to State Enrolled Nurse and the Roll of Assistant Nurses became the Roll of Nurses.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 05, 2009, 09:43:39 AM
The GNC records,correspondence and records are housed at Kew and are catalogued under the ref.DT.  I keep promising that I'll spend some time there rumaging one day.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4908&CATLN=3&Highlight=&FullDetails=True

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=4906&CATLN=3&FullDetails=True

Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 05, 2009, 07:57:52 PM
Hi, Just trying to get together two threads - the earlier one by Fran indicating (reading between his lines) that there may have been an interim version (brass) SRN badge (it must have been between the end of the silver and start of the chrome plated issues?).

Fascinated detailed stuff...(looking forward to chatting with you soon Wilf)

I have what I think is an additional version of a GNC badge which I think I got off 'nurse-badge' (??) perhaps a decade ago. It is a brass SRN badge, ie like an EN badge but with blue enamel. 'nurse-badge' (sorry I cant remember his name) said he thought they were produced during or just after the war and were made as such because of the shortage of alternative materials. I am almost 100% certain that this is NOT an ordinary SRN badge with the chrome plating rubbed off, which would otherwise seem like an explanation for the badge.

Can anybody else throw any light on this? I'm afraid I can't supply a photo at the moment (nor name or Reg number), all my badges are wrapped up and packed away and I can't bear the idea of going through all the boxes...(not that I've got all that many, just a few 100...).

Regards, Fran

And Peter's noting that there was a silver SRN No 500,000 badge issued:-

Quote
Reply #5 on: June 03, 2009, 11:22:38 AM - The other variant which would be very collectable was SRN badge number 500,000 which was awarded in silver,I believe in the 1960s.

Add the missing Mrs Bedford-Fenwick's badge and there are at least three 'Holy Grails' for the seriously serious collector?

W.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: Francis Biley on June 06, 2009, 10:25:09 AM
Nice badges Fran,
Found this which may relate to the POW medal,in which case there may be gold and bronze versions as well ?What year is the hallmark?
  See; http://rcnarchive.rcn.org.uk/data/VOLUME067-1921/page356-volume67-03rddecember1921.pdf

Nice one Peter, what a scholar! But I am confused. Wasnt the King Edward VII Hospital later to become Cardiff Royal Infirmary and was on Newport Road Cardiff. My badge was for the Prince of Wales Hospital, situated on ? St Mary Street Cardiff until it moved to the outskirts of Cardiff during ?WWII. Am sure you will be able to find the solution to this? I will check the date on the hallmark.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 06, 2009, 11:39:16 AM
Absolutely Fran,I can only presume that he not only endowed the prize medal at King Edward Hospital but also a similar one for the POW Hospital ? I  found a little background on Sir William Thomas here,including the fact he married the deputy matron at CRI !;
http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s2-THOM-JAM-1867.html?query=baronet&field=content
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: Francis Biley on June 06, 2009, 12:24:09 PM
 :) I knew you'd find an answer Peter...finding
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 06, 2009, 01:23:19 PM
Well yes, I must agree..

But forgive me gentlemen, are we not digressing from the topic in hand - General Nursing Council? I hate to disturb an enthusiastic discussion in full flow, but tell me do - how do you expect to pass your examinations in stamp collecting if you have been discussing motorcycles?.... I suppose next you will be conversing in Welsh?!

If need be I will report you to the moderator!!

Would you like me to start a new topic and transfer your posts? (please don't do that yourselves if you want to retain your current inputs) or shall we just continue with the topic in hand?

W.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 06, 2009, 05:57:38 PM
 Humble apologies but I believe from my good lady wife I may have displaying the apparently male trait of going off at a tangent?

GNC figures.Whilst I have not managed to get the final figures for those nurses on the GNC registers and rolls at close of play on June 30th 1983,(I wonder who was the recipient of the last Number?) I have however come up with some figures upto 1973 when they started to enter the details onto microfiche.
  So; SRN                 1921-73                                     1-472,888
        RSCN               1921-73                                     1-22,738
        RFN until closure in 1967                                     1-21,505
        RMN                -   1973                                      1-52,801
        RNMD renamed in 1962     
        RNMS                                                               1-10,102
        Male Nurses registered separately until 1950-          1-2142           
        SEAN               1944-62                                     1-72,175
        SEN                  1962-73                                     72,176-143,376  ( a massive rate of growth!)
        Roll of Mental Nurses 1962-72                                1-16814
        Roll of Mental Subnormal nurses                              1-7546

Hope that helps?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 06, 2009, 08:38:18 PM
Peter.

You are a star. Many thanks. Tangent away to your hearts content... Though I have to admit that I wondered what you would do if reported to yourself?!

That is a superb answer. For my part - I have photographed today the chromium plated SEAN badge that originated from your good self and will I hope get the photo's onto this topic (only logged in members will be able to see photo's here) early a.m. tomorrow. I will also add them to the gallery here and at nursingbadges (http://nursingbadges.multiply.com/). I just hope that our topic starter, Barry, is not suffering information overload.

W. 
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: barrysutton on June 07, 2009, 12:04:23 AM
Overload, surely not, this is good stuff,
In continuance of this theme does anyone know anything regarding the buttons for qualified nuses, nationally, I have four sizes for England & Wales in black, three sizes for Scotland and one for Northern Ireland.
I do also have SCM (State Certified Midwifery buttons) and Queens Institute for District Nurses.
Keep the answers coming.
All the best,
Barry
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 07, 2009, 10:48:35 AM
Hi.

Ok. I will give the attachment of the GNC photo a go....

There we are then. If you point/click on the photo it will enlarge sufficiently to allow you to read the reverse inscriptions. Both sides raise as many questions as they answer - the first of which must be is the badge a genuine GNC issue?

I will post photo's on the gallery in a little while which allow closer inspection - but just for the moment I will leave the post at that.

W.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 07, 2009, 02:56:25 PM
Well - just a couple of answers relating to a contribution by Peter ('backman') a few replies back herein:-

I have seen the type of badge in question and agree that it did seem to be a specific variant of SEAN badge as was a chromed version with green enamel but would love to know just how common these were.I know that Fattorinis ( there were several different companies not always associated) do still maintain pattern books and details of badges they have produced but I'm not sure how accessible these are to researchers?
The other variant which would be very collectable was SRN badge number 500,000 which was awarded in silver,I believe in the 1960s.....

I did place the photograph of a green enamel/chromed S.E.A.N. badge as promised  - just above in this reply and also in the our gallery:-

http://www.schoolsofnursing.co.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=4 and:-

http://www.schoolsofnursing.co.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=3

and on nursingbadges (same photo's). I have no idea how common these were..... I think that the definitive answer must lie with Fattorini's.

With regard to the Silver GNC Registration badge no; 500.000 - I believe that it was presented to Carol Green (21 at the time) who trained at the United Nottingham School of Nursing.

W.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: Francis Biley on June 07, 2009, 08:11:11 PM
OK, to add to the GNC badges debate, I got through to the bottom of box of badges number 5 or 6, and found these two strange ones lurking. Not enough computer skills to upload here, but they are in the gallery section of this site (when Wilf approves them), English Badge section.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 07, 2009, 08:16:49 PM
Thanks Fran.

I just approved the uploads. They are superb. If you give me the OK I will add them here for you. Personally I think that they are worth adding. I can't help with those dates, but maybe Peter....

W.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: Francis Biley on June 07, 2009, 08:23:55 PM
Thanks Fran.

I just approved the uploads. They are superb. If you give me the OK I will add them here for you. Personally I think that they are worth adding. I can't help with those dates, but maybe Peter....

W.
Yep, shove them up here, that would be great.

Quote
the two on the left are typical EN GNC badges, but the upper right badge is some kind of ?light copper badge with blue enamel, and underneath shiny ?brass EN badge (it has not been polished but has not dulled like the two on the left). Both are, unfortunately, un-named, but have the usual Fattorini mark (does anybody have a list of when Fattorini changed their marks, we might be able to date them that way?).Jun 07, 2009
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: Francis Biley on June 07, 2009, 08:37:59 PM
OK, I'm on a roll here, and have just uploaded a pic of RSCN 70 badge in the English Badges section.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 08, 2009, 10:24:53 AM
Nice one Fran,
 As far as dating badges from makers marks I can't do much better than reference the finding link for Fattorini and Miller badges ;http://www.badgecollectorscircle.co.uk/Miller%20fattorini.htm

I believe the shoulder titles for epaulettes for SRN & SEN were specified by the GNC as they had fairly strict regulations on uniforms and how they should be worn.At one stage they could only be purchased through licensed dealers.I think that I may have a copy of one of their booklets on uniform regulations,if I can find it?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 08, 2009, 10:28:29 AM
 See; http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/broughttolife/objects/display.aspx?id=4757
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 08, 2009, 12:51:07 PM
Hi Peter.

A good link with super pictures. But I still wonder - were the shoulder flashes part of the GNC Regs, - I can't remember them ever issued by the GNC, but of course they could have been approved/permitted by them... I have looked, finding your lead, into some early regulations I have - 1927 and 1931 (plus I must have something later of my own somewhere.

I do have an SRN shoulder flash I will photograph later and add here, and a couple of scans relating to the 1927 and 1931 GNC Uniform Regulations on badges which I will add to the gallery, but I would love to know (for the sake of knowing) if the shoulder flashes (metal or cloth) were a requirement or simply approved/permitted.

W.

Photo added below. Point/Click to enlarge.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 08, 2009, 08:41:09 PM
I thought it more straightforward to attach a copy of the 1931 GNC uniform regulations below - but of course this is only an example, highlighting Peter's remark about the GNC being very specific about the regulations governing uniform - in this part in relation to badges - click the picture below to enlarge and have a look at the regulations relating to the 'Storm Cap'.

Perhaps we will locate  the 'regs relating to the shoulder badges soon.

But perhaps just as close to Barry's heart - the regulations did cover the wearing of official GNC buttons...
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: nursesue on June 11, 2009, 01:25:53 PM
an interesting debate. The 1919 Registration Act stated that the council "shall make Rules....with respect to the uniform or badge, which maybe worn by nurses so Registered" - which the council took very seriously hence the 3 and half pages of regulations pertaining to the wearing and issuing of the uniform - and only certain places were allowed to make the uniform.
In 1921 it was decided to use the council's Seal on every Registration Certificate was to be made into a medal.
Just out of interest the GNC approved  39 applications for new badges in September 1940 from nurses who lost their original one at Dunkirk and 21 applications for badges lost during the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Forces from France
As we all know Ethel Fenwick is SRN 1 -but here are some other notable names
No 2 - Alicia Lloyd-Still
No 3 - Rachael Cox- Davies
No 4 - Margaret Sparshott
No5 - Annie Dowbiggin
No 6 Charlotte Yapp
No1 on the RFN is Annie Bryant and Tom Christian is no 1 for RMN
 I am still trying to find out who is number 1 for the SEAN and who is the first name on the Scottish register..........................
sue
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 11, 2009, 03:53:10 PM
Well done Sue!
Some great info. there.Whilst several of these names are known to me others are not . I may need to search the online archives of the Nursing Record for further biographical details.
Doesn't this just reinforce the fact that for all the efforts put in by such people the public are more familiar with popstars,celebrities and sportspeople than with nurses? Even within our own profession we still rarely celebrate the achievements of these nursing pioneers!
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: nursesue on June 11, 2009, 05:30:45 PM
Pete  - the setting up of the GNC, the Register and the nurses who made it happen is a finding read. I hadn't realised that Ethel Fenwick was so opposed to setting up the Roll for SENs - I wonder what she'd have made of today's debate that Nursing should be an all graduate profession!! I recently read that " There was much controversy in the profession over the content of the pupil nurse' practical training. Some felt it was too broad and included procedures which ought to be the province of the SRN - e.g. the administration of oxygen" - such a gem of a quote
 I have tried to upload a copy of the first page of the Register - will also post it in the gallery so it's bigger to read. December 2 1922 saw the first candidates stand for election to GNC - they included
Ethel Fenwick - Past Matron St Barts Hospital London
Miss Lloyd Still - Matron St Thomas' Hospital London
Miss Cox Davies - Matron Royal Free Hospital London
Miss Sparshott - Matron Royal Infirmary Manchester
Miss Yapp - Matron  Lake Hospital Aston under Lyme
Tom Christian - chief charge nurse  Banstead Mental Hospital
hope this helps Pete
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 13, 2009, 10:30:26 AM
Hello Sue.

Your last two additions to the debate are finding. We now have a published list of the 'Holy Grail' (no facetious intent) - the first seven entries on the GNC Register. I can't help wondering who penned the original entries. Does anyone herein know?

And going back to Peter's dated list of the register - 
Quote
GNC figures.Whilst I have not managed to get the final figures for those nurses on the GNC registers and rolls at close of play on June 30th 1983,(I wonder who was the recipient of the last Number?) I have however come up with some figures upto 1973 when they started to enter the details onto microfiche.
  So; SRN                 1921-73                                     1-472,888
        RSCN               1921-73                                     1-22,738
        RFN until closure in 1967                                     1-21,505
        RMN                -   1973                                      1-52,801
        RNMD renamed in 1962     
        RNMS                                                               1-10,102
        Male Nurses registered separately until 1950-          1-2142           
        SEAN               1944-62                                     1-72,175
        SEN                  1962-73                                     72,176-143,376  ( a massive rate of growth!)
        Roll of Mental Nurses 1962-72                                1-16814
        Roll of Mental Subnormal nurses                              1-7546
- there are some dates remaining to be clarified.

Starting at the beginning we don't yet have the start dates of those parts of the register pertaining to the commencement of the RMN; RNMD; RNMS; RNMH....

I will certainly see what I can find. Perhaps joint efforts would be more productive - any assistance would make an old man very happy!

Will.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 13, 2009, 08:22:36 PM
I notice a new ebay listing ;170344122846 of a 1923 GNc which at first glance appears not to be silver,or certainly can't see a hallmark?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 13, 2009, 08:58:55 PM
Hi peter.

Just had a look. It looks like chrome to me - but I suppose that silver could look much the same if highly polished and basic digital photography. But silver should carry a silver hallmark, and I can't see one either.

It seems a definite departure from the pattern of 1923 - the inscription (font) looks unusual - but I do happen to have a 1923 GNC badge - I will get it out and compare as best I can. Photographs can be very deceptive but the apparent lack of a hallmark is curious. Is it likely that Fattorini chromium plated any of these badges at that time?

I wonder if the number 15387 can be matched to the register? I will have a look at my badge tomorrow and add any observations here.

W.
Ps. Perhaps the seller can enlighten us all?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: barrysutton on June 13, 2009, 10:08:16 PM
Hello Again,
Thank you for all the wonderful info you've put on the ste regarding my enquiry, whoever put the first page of the GNC register on , I would be intrested if you have within that register the name A.M. Bird, I belive she would have been Matron of the Northern Hospital in Leeds.
All the best,
ODPBarry
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 15, 2009, 05:47:32 PM
Hello all.

Maybe Sue will return to answer your query if she can fairly soon Barry. Meanwhile  I would like to chip in a little more about the badge listed on ebay
Quote
I notice a new ebay listing ;170344122846 of a 1923 GNc which at first glance appears not to be silver,or certainly can't see a hallmark?
which Peter pointed out.

I haven't yet located my 1923 badge, but I have located a couple of 1922 and 1924/25, '38, 50's and a 60's versions which enabled a few comparisons and comments about these which may help clear a complicated picture a little... First. The face side of the badges all badges seem identical in design. The only difference seems to be that the enamel on the earlier (silver) badges appears royal blue in good light, whilst the chromium plated versions look more like the dark blue of a sister's uniform.  (Probably the same enamel being affected by different background shades).

The oval Fattorini trade mark is always (on my badges) top centre. There seem to be two versions - differences lie in the actual wording. Fattorini (Hockley St) Birmingham Ltd (no brackets), and Fattorini (Limited) Birmingham. I have two 1922 badges - each with an example of the different trade mark. The lack of 'Hockley St' on many later badges seems to indicate that may have been the original mark.

There are two versions of pin - one has a simple silver loop at the sharp end with a superb built in lever at the other, the pressure being maintained by the base of the pin levering against an almost 'b' (side view) base plate. The second is a half safety-pin design with the base of the pin rolled and bent through a tube - the pin itself provided the leverage. Both designs are present on my 1922 badges, one of each....

Some badges have loops - centrally placed at the base of the back - some do not. I think that these were perhaps fitted to order... Not much use in detecting differences from the mean.

There are obvious differences in the inscriptions - similar typefaces and placement in the silver badges - but very clear differences in placement of the numbers and wording. Similar but not same. I have a finding that they were individually applied by hand, but I don't know that to be true or false. There were of course button-hole finding badges. These generally have the inscription (Name/Qual/No./Date) running anti-clockwise around the rear face - clearly visible beyond the inverted C-sickle finding.

Each of these badges weighs 10 Grams approx.

I will add a few photographs as soon as possible - perhaps tomorrow, to help clear any fog I may have created. But getting back to the current ebay badge - the only real difference I can see is in the apparent lack of hallmark. But then it may have worn thin...

W.

16.June.2009 Ok. The photo's are below and observations invited. Click picture below to enlarge.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on July 05, 2009, 09:48:28 AM
 Although not officially sanctioned there are also the privately produced and sold badges ,often wrongly attributed to the UKCC. I recently picked one of these up in Wales,the first time I had seem one with a name and number on the rear,this being G.L.Bracknell   M.2338. Anyone have any suggestions as to the significance of this number?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on August 08, 2009, 04:00:49 PM
Hi.

We don't seem to have any answers to Peter's observations about the privately produced 'Registered Nurse' badge (above), but I have had time now to examine a badge which aroused both his (and my) curiosity.

I notice a new ebay listing ;170344122846 of a 1923 GNc which at first glance appears not to be silver,or certainly can't see a hallmark?

I managed to win the ebay auction and examined the badge closely.  I made a number of pre-auction observations based on the ebay photographs:-


Just had a look. It looks like chrome to me - but I suppose that silver could look much the same if highly polished and basic digital photography. But silver should carry a silver hallmark, and I can't see one either.

It seems a definite departure from the pattern of 1923 - the inscription (font) looks unusual - but I do happen to have a 1923 GNC badge - I will get it out and compare as best I can. Photographs can be very deceptive but the apparent lack of a hallmark is curious. Is it likely that Fattorini chromium plated any of these badges at that time?

I wonder if the number 15387 can be matched to the register? I will have a look at my badge tomorrow and add any observations here.

W.
Ps. Perhaps the seller can enlighten us all?


The seller could not assist, so I will add a couple of photographs below as soon as I am able, along with my direct observations. My first impulse was to write the badge down as fraudulent. It certainly does not match the majority of characteristics of the early GNC registration badges. But it's existance is a reality for which I would like to see an explanation.

I will publish the photos and my observations in a few days - then perhaps we can move the discussion further.
Will.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: myk1066 on October 27, 2009, 01:14:41 PM
Hi all.
Can anyone help me in dating the finding GNC badges.
SRN 468685
SRN 527982
SRN 571628
SRN 589155
SRN 594428
SRN 9466743 (This badge belongs to a fellow nurse who qualified 02/08/1973 & I also have a badge numbered 474140 from the same year)
RMN 59593
Also if anyone has one from 1969 that they want to sell/swap then that would be appreciated as it would make my collection complete from 1922 to 1969.
All help appreciated.
Mike
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on October 29, 2009, 08:39:09 AM
Hello Myke.

I will certainly check those dates I have and get back if I can help. I think that Peter is the expert there.

I can say that I don't have a 1969 GNC.

Will.

Ps. (06. March 2010). Myke - I think that the numbers don't add up. SRN 9466743?  Did you punch the '9' by mistake?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on March 11, 2010, 04:56:05 PM
Hi.

The General Nursing Council for England and Wales had a ruling that all 'state' badges issued were to be returned on the death of a nurse (and presumably when the council determined this for any other reason). Can anyone shed any light, I wonder, on the final destination of such returned badges. Were they simply destroyed - or perhaps archived somewhere for posterity?

Does, perhaps, SRN 1 - Mrs Ethel Gordon Bedford-Fenwick's badge (the holy grail), still exist?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on April 12, 2010, 06:39:07 AM
Hi.

I am nearing completion of an article on collecting GNC state registration badges for the main website, but am still searching unsuccesfully for a few details. Any help would be appreciated. Can anyone tell me:-

1. The total numbers of badges issued for SRN; RSCN; RMN; RNMH.  The last is probably the most difficult because of the changes in title - but the total number would suffice for now.

2. The dates of the last issues.

3. There were sixteen nurses appointed to the first GNC - eleven were matrons or ex-matrons - does anyone have the names for all the original nurse members.

All help is appreciated.

W.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on April 16, 2010, 05:28:36 PM
Sorry for not coming with the answers for you Will,I'm not sure I can find all the details but I'll try to get at least some info.Are you looking for the original members of the GNC from their first meeting in May 1920 to the first election of councillors in February 1923? I have found that 9 of the 16 nurses were from the College of Nursing with just 4 from the RBNA with the others being from the Poor Law Infirmaries or hospital Matrons.Of the RCN members I've identified the Misses Cox Davies,Lloyd Still and Sparshott and of course Ethel Bedford Fenwick.More to follow.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on April 16, 2010, 09:33:36 PM
Hi Peter,

You are still top!

The first meeting please. You have added two names I was looking for already - many thanks. If you would be willing to look at the article on GNC badges leave me a note in the messages box and I will send the link.

And this is very true - Just as I completed the first sentence above (sat in the computer room) my nearest arrived and asked 'is this a snake?' Before starting the second sentence I had written off my doubts (panicked!) as a small viper side-wound it's way into a dark corner. I despatched the poor creature with an old Matebele walking stick we had acquired in Africa some years ago - whilst doing the equivalent of a Scottish jig as it disagreed with me at a speed I couldn't believe!! I think that I will sit elsewhere for the rest of the evening - but at least that won't be the local equivalent of A&E!! Apologies for the digression - I will await your reply/progress from my laptop next door... Who's a coward? Me!!

W.  :o
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: nursesue on April 17, 2010, 02:25:13 PM
wilf - would that be a Cretan snake cos my hubby told me all greek snakes were poisonous!! A coward you are not
I had planned to read a GNC book that I 've got to try and find some answers only to discover I've packed it ready for our move to NOT warmer climes of Aberdeen Rumour has it there will be more snow AGGH Is it to late to move back to Greece!!
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on April 17, 2010, 03:28:23 PM
Hi Sue,

Yes, we are at our Cretan home right now - beautifully warm and sunny. It brings out the wild-life. Or should I say brings it in?! Sotiris may be right, but I do know that some only have 'back-fangs' - at the back of the mouth finding backwards (to prevent bitten prey escaping as well as killing it) so they can only bite prey which is not to big for them. I know that I am definitely too big for that type, but I don't know which snakes have back fangs and which dont!! I can't examine the remains as it has a flattened head. I know that because I flattened it!

Don't worry about the book right now - Peter is batting as well - it will do when you get it out again. I am desperate for proof-readers though (expert on GNC and badges). You only need a browser, and in your case you might also find a 'borrowed' sentence! If you are able, let me know and I will upload and send the private link. But you are obviously busy right now so don't take on too much.

No, it isn't too late if you don't mind snakes!

 
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: nursesue on April 17, 2010, 07:31:42 PM
hi wilf  I am more than happy to do proof reading or whatever  - it will help me relax after the chores of packing
suex
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: barrysutton on May 01, 2010, 07:51:09 PM
Hello Wilf,
The article you've put on the April Newsletter is wonderful. I hope that my original enquiry didn't cause you the trouble of producing this amazing article. If I can be of any help in the future please feel free to ask, and no I've not forgotten about the 'Military' article.
All the best,
ODPBarry
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on May 01, 2010, 09:07:37 PM
Hi Barry.

Good to hear from you and your compliments have increase my hat size by at least two. But that is only the first in the series (articles not hat sizes). I hope that the rest will turn out as well - but of course the real kudos must go to the nurses who won them - leaving their mark indelibly on the history of the profession.

The military badge articles will, I know, appear in due course. I have every confidence that you will make certain that they are equally good. For now, maybe you would like to join our pre-publication readers and comment privately on the next article towards it's completion? You would be most welcome.

W.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on June 18, 2010, 03:06:07 PM
Hi.

I have today added a paragraph or two on the costs of collecting GNC (E&W) State Registration badges to the article I added in April. The additional material is added at the end of the conclusion here:-

http://www.schoolsofnursing.co.uk/Collections1/GNCEWBadges.htm

Any/all observations are welcome. I hope that the addition is useful.

Will.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on August 03, 2010, 12:42:13 PM
Hi.

Just to draw attention to a very unusual GNC State Registration badge on an ebay auction:-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140432982739&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

With an apparent blood-red centre. I have never personally heard of such a badge. The seller said that it might have been a prototype.

I do not have any personal knowledge of such a badge - but then it could have been. Use your own judgement.

Will.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on August 03, 2010, 04:15:50 PM
Have seen this and it is difficult to see whether this is a DIY job or something more official? At first glance it looks fairly crude and appears to be an unofficial adaption to a normal badge ,but my view is that this would be recent as I cannot believe that the GNC would sanction such a variation to the standard design. I would like to see it in more detail to comment further?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: nursesue on August 05, 2010, 03:24:59 PM
my initial thoughts were that somebody had been let loose ( very badly) with a paintbrush and am happy to be proved wrong
sue ::)
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: barrysutton on April 24, 2012, 11:36:19 PM
Hello, does anyone know of or have the enrolled nurse version of this badge with S.E.M.N. on it.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: wilfb on April 25, 2012, 02:52:18 PM
Hi Barry.

Never seen one/mentioned....

Will.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: barrysutton on April 25, 2012, 08:46:23 PM
The reason I poise the question is that the Army School of Physciatric Nursing when based at The Queen Elizabeth Military Hospital, Woolwich, London had badges for both Registered Mental Nurses & Enrolled Mental Nurses?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on April 27, 2012, 06:45:45 AM
Applications for admission to the Register of Nurses could be accepted only from properly qualified nurses who had completed a three-year training course. There was a large group of second grade or assistant nurses with two years training who were therefore ineligible for registration. In November 1937, an Interdepartmental Committee on Nursing Services, chaired by the Earl of Athlone, recommended that the assistant nurse should be given a recognized status and placed on a roll under the control of the General Nursing Council. This recommendation was eventually embodied in the Nurses Act 1943 by which the General Nursing Council was to regulate the formation, maintenance and publication of the roll and to establish conditions of admission to and removal from the roll.
Unlike the register, the roll included male and female Assistant nurses on one list from the beginning. There was no provision in the 1943 Act for maintenance of the roll in several parts so that there could be no enrolment of assistant nurses working with mental patients. The Nurses Act 1964 gave the council power to make rules for the enrolment of nurses with experience in psychiatric nursing and two rolls were opened for mental nurses and nurses for the mentally subnormal.
In 1961 it was considered that the use of the term 'Assistant Nurse' was hindering recruitment and the Enrolled Nurses Rules Approval Instrument SI 1961/1519 changed the name to State Enrolled Nurse and the Roll of Assistant Nurses became the Roll of Nurses.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on April 27, 2012, 08:12:37 AM
Hope the above details from the National archive holdings helps. So from the opening of the Rolls for mental nurses in 1962 until 1972 when the paper records became entered onto microfiche the numbers given were SEN(M) 16814 and SEN(MS) 7546.As to were badges issued accordingly,I can only suppose that they were but I can't say that i have come across any?
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: barrysutton on April 17, 2015, 10:37:13 PM
Does anyone know when the register for Males started for the General Nursing Council for S.R.N.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on April 18, 2015, 10:16:02 PM
As far as I can recall this was deemed a "Supplementary Part of the Register for Male Nurses" and was introduced from the outset of the GNC.What I hadn't quite realised was that their numbering system was separate to the general register so presumably there is another SRN Number 1,but this time a man!!!! It would be interesting to know who this was?

I have a 1956 Supplement to the GNC Register in which there is quite a flood of Male Nurses coming into the profession after the end of the war.Male registration numbers in that year go from around 1600 to 2100.The earliest Male nurse number I have found who was removed from the register in 1956 was number 12 John Sutcliffe Greenwood.Always leads to more questions??
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: myk1066 on April 19, 2015, 12:04:01 AM
Why was he removed from the register one asks!
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on April 19, 2015, 06:21:01 AM
When the Nursing registers opened,many of the first additions were retrospective, for nurses who had trained many years before.Thus if he had trained in the 1900s say,he would have been in his seventies ,so the answer was he had probably died! As well as new additions to each part of the register,there was a large section of whose whose names had been removed.They really do make finding reading.
Title: Re: General Nursing Council
Post by: backman on June 14, 2018, 09:35:19 AM
 As an update on previous discussions I have now managed to identify the finding from trawling the ancestry registers.It may be of interest ,especially if anyone knows where any of these might be in time for next years centenary of Nurse Registration? Format is Qualification number,name,date of registration and place and type of training
SRN 1 Ethel Gordon Fenwick(nee Manson) Registered Sept 30,1921 ,1878-79 Royal Infirmary Manchester

RFN 1 Annie Bryant,sept 30 ,1921,Exp.1894-96 South Western Hospital Stockwell

RSCN 1 Evelyn Margaret Hughes,Oct.28,1921 Cert 1909-12 Childrens Hospital Birmingham

SRN Male 1  George Dunn March  17 1922 Cert 1901-04 RAMC Hospitals

RNMD 1 Minnie Eleanor Alderton May 19th 1922 brock Hall Whalley

RMN 1 Tom Christian Sept 30.1921 Cert MPA 1900-03 Banstead Mental Hospital

When I get a chance i will try and do the same for the Scottish Registers.